Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan: Interview

Ian is Scotland's foremost instructor, based in Edinburgh. Although Ian works quietly with no pretension, he is held in high esteem by his peers and fellow Taiji practitioners.

Having studied Taiji in Scotland for twleve years I have met and talked to Ian on a few occasions. Consequently, when I was asked to do this interview for Qi Magazine I jumped at the chance. The conversation below gave me an opportunity to know Ian a little better and allowed me some insight to a man who has lived with Taiji, as an integral part of his life, for twenty-three years.

About four or five years. Like I said, that was at the very beginning and gradings were few and far between.

I'm surprised you were even able to read about it then as literature on the subject must have been hard to come by.

I think it was R.W. Smith who had written the book, which was one of the first I had seen on Taiji. The postures in the pictures looked really nice and the subject was interesting. It looked really interesting. That was the first time I had come across Taiji. Then I started to see little clips of it, when there was anything about China featured on television. There were these fascinating movements they were doing in the parks. That too, was something which attracted my attention.

No, because there was none. None at all. I picked up a book, again by R.W. Smith, on Bagua and this kept my interest. By this time I had stopped doing Karate.

No, I came away from Karate. For whatever reason I'm not sure, but it wasn't for me. I always kept an interest in the arts at some level and I always kept fit.

I notice that you have some statuettes on boxing. Did you have an interest in western boxing too?

I had participated in boxing at local clubs. At that time there were quite a few clubs around as boxing was fairly popular. When I stopped Judo, I tried quite a few things and even had a go at amateur wrestling. I was really just looking, trying to see what was available. My main interest was always in the East. I remember at sixteen picking up a book by Alan Watts on Zen Buddhism, reading it, and never understanding a word of it, but nevertheless, having an interest.

I couldn't put a finger on it. Is started when I was about sixteen and maybe before that, but I had no idea of anything leading me to it or whatever. Once I picked up that Zen Buddhism book, it kept a strong interest for me.

It's only in the past twenty to twenty-five years we have been subject to any great level of exposure in things Eastern. I wonder to what extent material on Eastern philosophies was available thirty years ago.

Very little, we just had Judo. Interest in Eastern philosophy followed on from that.

No. I was working with Andy Bull, who was a teacher in Edinburgh. Like anyone else who was studying an art, I bought books on the subject and studied the background to it. Things like Harrison's "Fighting Spirit of Japan." This gives a background to Judo, Karate and some of the other arts that were around then, It just grew from there. You're looking for more information and you just take a hold of it when you find it. Like you say, there wasn't that much around. It was hard to come by. Maybe that was a good thing, because you studied what you had. It wasn't like you were buying every book in sight as there were only a few available.

I was a musician in the army and I joined a particular regimnt that was going to Hong Kong.

Yes. I went there with the sole intention of finding a teacher in Taiji. I did that within the first week I was there.

I went to a sports shop with a Taiji book in my hand and said that I was looking for a teacher. The guy in the shop brought out a big, thick book of teachers and he pointed out Cheng Tin Hung. It was a stroke of luck. I never experimented with any other style of Taiji. That was it.

You got the name from the book... Did this guy then phone and make contact for you?

I just took a walk up the stairs, knocked on the door, and there he was sitting with his friends. We went through, "What is it you want to learn... etc. etc." Eventually I made an appointment to visit the class on Saturday morning.

Were you just half hoping that someone would be able to understand you when you called on his house?

What kind of reaction did you get on that initial meeting? How did he regard you?

I think there was a bit of surprise at this Westerner turning up on his doorstep on a Sunday afternoon.

Was it the surprise that got you the appointment to go to the class or was he quite open anyway?

I think he was quite open. There was a fairly long conversation initially when I told him about my background, what I had studied etc.

I went to the class the following Saturday, was shown some of the form and then went home to practise it.

What were your initial feelings, finally seeing the reality of something you had only previously seen in books and movies?

The initial thoughts were concerning the different styles from the books. Th Yang form was what the books were always about and this was the Wu form. I was initially taught the square form, which was something different again.

Did someone demonstrate a square form and then a round form and explain what the difference was and form an outline of the way you would be working?

It was almost like they took it as it came. I suppose initially they were wondering whether or not I was going to stay around for a while.

Was there much verbal contact? I know, from what little I have seen that there is not much verbal contact with the Chinese, they just work away and you follow, trying to imitate as best as possible.

That was pretty much how they worked. Things gatherd momentum and I went from Saturday mornings to also attending in the evenings. The evening classes were very busy.

Taiji is now becoming very popular in the West and there is also a lot of superficial interest. Did you find that in Hong Kong?

Not really, it was too early then. There was hardly any Western interest and I was the only European there for two years. As taiji wasn't too well known, it was mainly only the serious students who were practicing back then.

I found it a very friendly atmosphere. It was good. It was very nice and I made a lot of good friends. It's been like that ever since. I've just carried on practicing.

Yang Lu Chan was the teacher of Wu Chuen Yu, who in turn taught his son, Wu Chien Chuan, who taught Sifu's uncle, Cheng Man Kuom who in turn taught Sifu - Cheng Tin Hung. So it goes back to Yang Lu Chan who was the major influence.

How many teachers are there around of the style which has come through that lineage?

When I was in China for a short while last year, I got the impression that there was general Taiji for health going on in the parks but there were also small coteries of people doing something that was completely different. They seemed to be pursuing another side of the art that the masses weren't doing. Did you find the same in Hong Kong?

I just felt I was getting a lot of what was very good. I really felt that. That was backed up by Sifu's reputation in Hong Kong.

He gave me his name because of his reputation, he was well regarded. From all my time practicing I have never felt that someone else was getting anything better. I think if you have that idea that you will never really settle down. It's really what you're doing and what you put into what you're doing that relates to what you will get out of it. If you're continually dissatisified and are pursuing hundreds of styles of this thing and the next thing... I'm not sure that's really satisfying. I did get a complte system and I'm happy with it.

They were quite surprised. It was just something Ian did. Being a musician I had a fair bit of spare time which allowed me to practise regularly. If I was off in the afternoon, I would go off to the gym and practise. I was probably there about two or three times a week and the Saturday morning. It was fairly intensive for two years. Knowing I was only going to be there for two years, I tried to practice as much as I could.

It's hard to say, but more recently I've seen connections between the two in the sense that eventually everything is refined over time. It doesn't matter what you are doing, if you keep doing it, it becomes more and more refined. The musicians I admire are the ones who push the barriers out, those who aren't sticking to the rules. I also see the applications and the expanding of the application of Taiji in a similar way. There is also the expressionism.

Over thw two years you worked on the form, you worked with pushing. Did you get involved with anyQigong or anything?

Internal strength which is different from Qigong, it's Nei Kung, which means internal work, as opposed to breath. For me, this is what gives the outer appearance of Taiji the balance and the internal core which balances the outer appearance. It builds up the body in a different way and makes the body more resiliant, stronger, the joints are looser. For me it's a very important aspect of Taiji and it's amost indispensable for good Taiji.

You see a quality but you're not quite sure how he's got there until you start practising and realise how much work he has to put in to get to that level. I always felt if something is good, it's not a problem to carry on with it. Watching some of the people I had been working with took me along and inspired me. It was also the enjoyment that kept me going. We got into some free fighting, some applications, this was always part of the course, we just did it.

I think they had to get to know you for a while. They wouldn't take you just walking in off the street.

How long did it take you to become confident in Taiji as a bone fide fighting system?

Some of the training I did with sparring was within me already, as a result of my previous work. You were kind of put on the spot and had to learn as you did it. The sparring didn't seem to be like sparring, it was fighting and there was a fair bit of hard knocks and throws.

It was sometime later that I started to teach. Five or six years later I was back in Edinburgh and Sifu had suggested I start to teach. I didn't do any formal teaching as such, I only taught a couple of friends. It gradually grew from there. There wasn't an obvious decision made it just gradually began to happen. Even then I was never that happy with what I was teaching.

Did you feel that the quality which you had experienced in Hong Kong wasn't yet something you were in a position to convey or pass on?

Well although I had started to build the classes, it wasn't until I went back to Hong Kong that things began to gel. What I was doing was okay but it needed another look at and some refinement.

When Cheng Tin Hung suggested you teach in Scotland, did he have any aims in mind, to spread his work in the West?

Maybe. It wasn't specifically expressed. When I went back, (Dan Docherty was also working there then) it was suggested that we get Sifu across to the UK and to Edinburgh. This was in 1980 and that was the first course over here with Sifu and he has been back a few times since, and I have been over there a few times. That's how it's been since.

There would have come a time when you had an opportunity to work with Yang style. What made you stay with the Wu?

I always found it very straight ahead, straight forward and very practical. In the two years it became very connected with me and when I came away, I kept practising faithfully, probably in the fear of losing it.

Not really. It was just constant self-motivation to practise. It is still there with me. I've always been that way, not for any grand reason, but just to practise. That's really what I've been doing for the past twenty odd years.

There is an analogy I like which is about having to go on a journey to be there by an appointed time. The main focus of the journey is on getting to the destination. As a result, the journey itself is missed and anything that happens along the way is lost. THe focus is only on the goal and there is no pleasure in the journey.

For me the goal of anything is just the doing of it. There is nothing to reach or attain, but only the doing and the practising. I practise Taiji because I love Taiji and that for me is the essence of the whole practise. If you have a goal in mind, then it's almost like a distraction and there will always be anxiety inside about reaching that goal. The goal is the practise. Enjoy the journey, that's it. For me, that is what has become stronger in the last few years. You practise for the sake of practise.

I think that maybe refinement is the thing. If it was the same now as it was all those years ago I would be kind of worried. It has to change. That is the essence of Taiji - the change takes place. Even the form is different at the end than it was at the beginning. It feels different. There is an old saying that you can never put your toe in the same river twice. It's true. Every time you raise your hand, it must be a new form.

Looking at all the different styles and different interpretations of the same styles, how do you feel about the myriad of versions and interpretations that are around today?

I'm not sure that what I think really matters. It's just what people bring to it themselves. As long as it is taught to the best that it can be taught. There are some styles that I'm not really sure of that I can't comment on but when you see someone performing well it's good.

I find that a really difficult area because if I was worrying about everything that wasn't being taight properly, I would be worried every day of the week. There is not a lot of influence I can have on that as people do become entrenched in a stance - "This is how I practise," I don't see any point in arguing against it. I just let them get on with it. Personalities bring different things to Taiji and that's a good thing because it gives it a chance to expand in range. Taiji nowadays isn't the same as it was when it started, it has to change. All I hope for is that people study what they've practised before they start passing it on.

With regards to studying the art before passing it on, did you find the art of passing it on a study process too?

You do learn by teaching. Sifu always said that if you teach, you will remember it better. Taiji for me is for the long haul. It's a slow fuse and I'm quite happy with that. You just teach it bast you can. As long as you keep examining yourself and don't begin to take things for granted. It keeps coming back to practice. Hopefully if my practice comes over to my students, they also benefit. If I work hard then they will also see it and hopefully get the same motivation to practise.

Yes. The only thing I look for in my students is that they are sincere in what they are doing and that they are doing and that they practise regularly. I'm not going to lay down any hard and fast rules. Taiji has a visual appeal which attract people. It looks very nice but what you don't see is all the work which has gone in to making it that way. There is a quality which takes a long time to develop and Taiji takes a long time to learn. There are things that can be learned quite quickly, but it takes years to refine it. There is an apparent simplicity about Taiji that makes it look like an easy option, but it certainly isn't. I find it's as hard and arduous a road as any other martial art. You have to put the time in.

After what period of time would you introduce your students to working with weapons?

They would have to spend a year or two on the hand forms first. It depends a lot on the individual.

Do you initiate the process, rather than the students pushing themselves forward?

Generally I do. I usually recognize when they're ready for it, and nobody should be held back. They should be given respect for the time they have put in. Whether or not he's very good, he is getting something out of whereever he is. They are getting something out of Taiji at whatever level and that to me is very important for the individual. It's nice to see people developing.

Can you give me a brief outline of how your classes work, from the beginners' first steps and through the programme?

There are five elements we work on: the Hand Forms, Pushing Hands, Self Defence, Weapons and Internal Strength. These five elements make up a complete integrated whole. There is tremendous scope for development within these five aspects, it's never ending. I always try and encourage my students to see beyond the technique. All the techniques will work but not necessarily for the same people. A short person could work more on one technique than a tall person and vice-versa.

Students are taught the square form first. When they have completed that, they are given some time to settle into it before going on to the round before going on to the round form. We only do a long form, there are no short forms in our style. I find there's a depth to a long form which I enjoy. You can really go into it. I think short forms have their place but I feel for depth, you really need a long form.

Whilst working on the forms they are doing pushing hands and some applications. This helps them to see what they're doing. If you show them some points of application, it gives their practise a focus and they get a glimpse of what's behind it. From there, pushing hands and applications, we move on. Not everyone learns the same weapon because somebody is more inclined towards the spear or the sabre or whatever. I like to deal with individuals and try to fit in what they are best suited for. Eventually they all learn anyway, but I try to see what they are most comfortable with, with regard to the weapons and go on from there. The sword is quite a subtle weapon. If you teach someone who can't see the subtleties, they might get on better with the spear or sabre. Then when they have come through that, they are more suited to the sword.

Not in the class. It's open to everybody, but it's a natural selection process. Some hang around, some go away. You can't teach somebody who's not there. The people who have been attending regularly and you know they're serious, you mention to them that this is available. It's not a big dark secret, but it's something that I like to keep a lot of respect for.

Yes, because that's the background, that's where it's coming from. I enjoy Lao Tzu and Chang Tzu. That's very pure Taoist writings. If you practice Taiji, you're putting these principles into a physical context. Taiji is a martial art and it can be used for many things. There are many facets to Taiji and and it can be used for any reason, but essentially it's a martial art. There are maybe better reasons for practising Taiji than the martial art, but it gives it a solidity and a content. It's inseperable. If you think of the postures. "Parry-Punch", "Elbow Stroke" etc., they aren't called that for nothing.

I think it has been good because more people are becoming aware of Taiji and that can only be good.

Competitions don't particularly interest me that much. We have entered a couple and done reasonably well. Competition has never really been a strong element in what I do. I'm not against competitions but it doesn't seem to be where I want to go at this particular moment. Maybe there can sometimes be an empty feeling at the end of it. It is okay if you win something, but even that has its limits. You have then got to go to the next competition to prove you're still with it. (Ian then had a little laugh to himself). You've got to keep proving yourself. I'm not sure if competition is exactly what Taiji is about. I'm not sure if form should be judged either, because that is too subjective and I think it reduces it to something like Come Dancing or synchronised swimming. It's just someone's opinion on how someone performs. If you go back to the classics, ultimately, it's not what it looks like, it's the spirit that matters. However, if people want that, I'd never deny any of my students the right to do it. I would say okay, and so what I could to help them. It's an experience. As long as it doesn't become the reason for doing Taiji. I think that's probably the best balance I can think of right now.

Competitions are okay if people want the experience but in the end it all comes down to practising the art of Taiji. That above all is really what's important. You can go to all the competitions and watch them, but nine times out of ten what sticks in your mind is a good demonstration of the various aspects of Taiji. That is what shows real proficiency. That for me is where it begins and ends. That is the Art.

I find it relaxing and calming. I'm not thinking about how well it's being done.... it's only for myself. You must practise to gain maximum benefit.

Can you tell me about the differences you find between going through the form yourself, for yourself, and going through it with a group?

It's always better doing it for yourself. Individuals have different tempos and I feel more comfortable in solo practice. It has to be done in a group and you must be part of the group and move with the group as one. There is always a place where people are slightly out of step. It's not a dance. Some go quicker, some go slower.

After practising for twenty-three years, do you still find times when you notice that something isn't right?

There are some parts of the form when you never feel just right..., it's always changing. You feel uncomfortable at different parts of the form. It's just a continual, ongoing process, there's no end.

In as much as I'm a different shape, a different type. It's bound to be different. Someone once asked him the same question and he pointed to his finger and said that nobody has got the same fingerprint. Basically, it is still the same form, done similarly, but can't be replicated exactly.

You should just be immersed in the form... you can't stop thinking, there are things going on in your head all the time. It's coming back to the form, coming back to the form continually. How many times, thousands of times, just coming back to the form. Gradually the thoughts, they never stop, but they calm down. For me, it's like when somebody says something in the distance, somebody moves, or kicks a ball, you just acknowledge it and come back to the form.

It's not really separate, is it? It's there all the time, no matter what you are doing, peeling the potatoes, washing the dishes.

A sense of well-being, a sense of doing something I really enjoy. It keeps me pretty healthy and quite fit. I've met a lot of nice people. I think I've just had a good time doing Taiji.

I don't know. Knowing what I know now, it would be a big void. I might have stayed with Karate or done Aikido or something. There's lots of nice martial arts around.

There is no magic in Taiji, but it is magic. The feeling, the practice of it and the developing of it. Keep it down to earth. The only way to understand anything is to work at it. I think if you have a good system which feels good and works well, and you work at it, keep at it, that's all there is, to keep at it, then, that's what counts. I tend to let Taiji speak for me. My practice is what comes out of that. That's basically it. I keep it as simple as that. I'm not after anything. I just practise. That's all.

This article first appeared in Issues 10 (September/October 1993) and 11 (January/February 1994) of Qi Magazine, published by the Tse Qigong Centre, PO Box 116, Manchester M20 3YN, UK.